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people will argue with me about Anton . I dont think Anton was Atheist and I do beleive he beleived in Magick....On one Satanism FB page me posts where deleted and i couldnt post at that site ani mo....i neva realli knew why the split happened obviousli It was SET....duh me. ..Im not a memba of either group but use the knowledge of both. I did however send a short essay to Eric Kaustin...and i dont think he liked what I had to sa actualli I think he made fun of it. I dont care. I attempted to reach out to notha Setian. The real measure of Magick power would be results. It doesnt matter if im acepted or not , although it would hbe nice to discuss things...
I beleive it is essential to be veri familour with Anton and his writings to step up to the TOS...
I agree the COS in it early days was not very "atheist". It was when Peter Gillmore took over that the COS beccome atheist. In the satanic bible Levey did not say that "Satan" did not exsist he clamed it was "evil in force nature"
I used to be confused on LaVey's position on whether a real, physical devil existed because it seemed that he would contradict himself a lot. In my youth, it seemed that in one chapter of a book he would hint at it being real and himself being a sorcerer, and a chapter later it would seem he would deny it completely.
I realize now that Lavey's Satanism was very much athiestic. And I will provide you with some points to prove it.
First of all, you have to know a little about LaVey as a man. In a sense, he was very much like the "Satan" in the Holy Bible, because he was a trickster, a deceiver, and a con artist in many ways. Consider him in his earlier career being a "ghost buster". He would go into peoples homes and pretend to cast out ghosts for money. If these gullible people were dumb enough to believe it, why not take advantage of them. They are just asking for it and inviting it in. Go back even further. He learned the tricks of the trade working for carnivals, circuses, and in strip bars/burlesque halls early in life. He saw a lot of con artists. He knew how to steal people money. Learned how to be a "psychic", which is nothing but "cold reading" of course. Feeding them information based on what they are simply telling him through body language, choice of words, psychology, etc... He goes into this in The Satanic Witch. Maybe he grew tired of deceiving people and he wanted to be a real teacher...teaching his many years of studying human nature and human behavior. He blatantly admits in Satanic Witch how to deceive and confuse people. There are whole chapters on it! LaVey was a brilliant man. Perhaps in some other life he would have just been a real psychologist. But the path he chose would make him famous and also pigeon-hole him into this "devil" nonsense. A true showman, for publicity, he lived it up in the early years.
The people of Temple of Set probably grew wise to it and branched off. They wanted REAL devil worship, magic, and spells. LaVey never really believed in it. I imagine him feeling very cornered. He was offered to make a religion and a bible. It didn't just come to him. He was OFFERED to write a BIBLE. He had to jump on it.
Some will want to discredit him and call him a lier....well, he admitted he was a lier. In fact, in some ways, he was the most truthful person there is. He called out other religions for pretending to really believe in it and be "real". Satanism has always admitted it's showmanship and it's theatrics and mockery for satire purposes. I admire LaVey as a person. Did he make some mistakes? Sure. But I can understand quite easily why some of these decisions were made.
Most of The Satanic Bible WAS NOT WRITTEN BY LAVEY. LaVey plagiarized "Might Is Right" by Ragner Redbeard. He admitted to it in later years. Again, he was on a deadline and Might Is Right was a "lost book" at the time. No copyright. It didn't exist. He agreed with it, sure. Otherwise he wouldnt have used it. But much of it was pure passion and anger. There was an energy in it that was so powerful, he knew it would become a hit. He changed some things around and added to it. But I'm sure he knew the Enochian Keys was bullshit.
Some say the name of his religion was misleading. Well, consider these three points why it's the perfect title:
1. Satanism really is practically the complete opposite philosophy when compared with christianity. It's a 180. Why not use The Bible's boogeyman and adversary to describe it?
2. The "boogeyman" quality will scare off a lot of people an cause controversy. A marketing genius idea, and you cut the fat and scare away people too stupid to understand it anyway. LaVey once said something along the lines of "I'd rather have 10 Satanist's that really understood it, than have legions of people that have no idea what they are talking about and constantly ruining and confusing the philosophy..this is what other religions have done
3. Satan is not a literal figure. We Satanists identify with the "anti-hero" aspect of Satan. We view this fictional character as the "guy who stood up against the fascist authority figure that is God". He's not the bad guy. He's the villian. He was the most beautiful angel of all who had a different view of morality and was cast down by the fascist dicktator. He's the one who had the balls to fight the power. To start a revolution. To challenge the powers that be.
In short, I feel that LaVey was confusing on purpose at times. And I think if you read and research carefully enough, you will find out why. He had this amazing philosophy that combined Marquis De Sade with Nietzsche and no one wanted to take him seriously because of the name issue. He dug his own hole. It was something of a catch 22: He could have titled it anything else, and it wouldnt have gained worldwide popularity. It would have been just another book on the shelves. And he was too abstract and too artistic to hold to any one set in stone philosophy anyway. Times change. If Might really Is Right, then the winners write the history books. Truth is subjective. Nature is neutral and doesn't care. Right and Wrong change with the times.
Also, I copied this from Yahoo Answers: The question was something like "If LaVey was an athiest, why would he include spells in The Satanic Bible"?
2 reasons- mostly it is tongue in cheek BUT he did feel that you could manipulate psychological aspects of the brain to create the right situation for spells to "work". This has more to do with Jung and Crowley than the Devil though. So in a way he was not a pure Atheist- He just didn't believe in a literal God and Satan. He saw Satan as a personification of humanities "free will".
He was for the most part an Atheist - he just believed in the ability of people to manipulate things (especially their own psyche) through "will"
^^^ And I agree with the above statements. We musn't forget that there may of course be some new scientific discoveries that would not prove religion right. We could have some hidden abilities that we don't know or understand yet. Science is relatively new. There are plenty to learn. We are still trying to figure out our DNA.
The Great James Randi has a 1 Million Dollar prize award for anyone to be able to display and prove that they have some ability that we would consider supernatural. The prize has been on since the 1960s. Not a single person has been able to prove anything. thousands and thousands have tried. It's any ability. Psychic, telekenetic,....whatever you think you can do. James Randi is a brilliant man, very similar to LaVey in some ways. He's a professional magician who wants to debunk the people like Sylvia Brown who steals peoples money and gives them false hope. That is precisely what LaVey did with his "Satanism" career. He wanted to show people that ALL religion is just theatrics and psychology, and the smarter person would see through the fog of bullshit. George Carlin was another with that life goal in my opinion. As I said, these people are very admirable to me.
^^^Perhaps if you want to worship imaginary gods and devils. Why would you worship the devil if you could worship God? Makes no sense. As long as I have no free will and am a slave to man-made outer space deities, I'd rather pick Christianity.
I'm a big fan of LaVey's work. I never said anything about him lying about what he did in his life. Those are your words. And I don't care. I've seen Zeena's poor excuse of attacks at her fathers work. Even if some of them were true, it doesn't change the greatness of the philosophy. I really could care less. Who doesn't lie about things in their life? No one successful has ever told the complete truth about everything.
Maybe he lied about circuses and Marilyn Monroe. Maybe he didn't. We really won't know. There are plenty of contradicting evidence...and some (like Monroe) will never be proven or disproven. She is not alive to say. Anyway, my point is that what I've come to learn about LaVey was that he was this brilliant and often bizzare man who I'd like to hang out with and discuss art and film noir with. We have many things in common and I would have liked a meeting with him.
It's indisputable that Church of Satan has done "better" than the Temple of Set. What would be defined as "better"? Financially? Popularity? Numbers of members? Church of Satan has clearly done better than ALL rip off or "branched off" forms of Satanism. Church of Satan was the first and will be the one remembered over the many others that followed suit and wanted to hop on the devils band wagon.
Well, I don't really know anything about the Temple of Set and only a little about the church of Satan..I did read the Satanic Bible a long time ago, and back then, I did hang out with some other teens who did have somewhat Satanic beliefs. But, I think their beliefs were more their own thing..One of them practiced magick and in this beliefs, you had to honor both God and The Devil. My other friend disagreed..I think because he felt that God was a huge asshole, and so were a lot of his followers. His beliefs are different now, he still believes in practicing magick but he is not as dark..I am pretty sure my other friend still believes the same way..I am more into Neo Paganism now..At the time, I wasn't just reading the Satanic Bible, I was also reading about Wicca and Shamanism, and my friends and I also had a lot of pagan friends.;Most of them are still friends with me now, infact I hang out with one of them every week. I found the path that appealed to me..I don't mean to speak for everyone but maybe that is why if someone wants to be a Satanic witch, they might find other paths more appealing than Lavey Satanism.
It might be semantics, but as far as I'm aware there are two types of Satanism. Call it what you like, Atheistic Satanism/LaVeyian Satanism...or whatever else ...And then there is Traditional Satanism/Devil Worship It's a literal belief in the angel/spirt/whatever that is Satan. There are rituals performed where this type of Satanist really believes in the power of magic and that Satan will grant their wishes true. If thats not giving thanks to the devil and "worshiping" him, I'm not sure what is.
1. Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
2. Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure they want to hear them.
3. When in another’s lair, show him respect or else do not go there.
4. If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
5. Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.
6. Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved.
7. Acknowledge the power of magic if you have employed it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.
8. Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.
9. Do not harm little children.
10. Do not kill non-human animals unless you are attacked or for your food.
11. When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
I remember one of my stupid ex roommates..He told me he had friends who were "vegetarian Satanists" and he said the day he met them, he looked at their copy of the Satani Bible, and he claimed he opened it up and saw something that said people should take whatever they want from others..So, he came to the conclusion that his former friends were hypocrits for being vegetarians, since in his view ( after reading about Satanism for probably a grand total of 5 minutes) the Satanic Bible said it was ok for them to take what they wanted and that would include eating animals if they wanted. One of his more charming traits was being super judgemental about the beliefs of others, but not knowing much about those beliefs before he opened his fat ignorant mouth. Anyway, I do remember this list of 11 Satanic Rules from when I read the book in 1998. And, number six does prove him wrong..Unless what he was reading was from a book about Satanism that was written later.
I've been reading about the Temple Of Set online. I'm glad I have continued my study of Magick. I'm trying to focus on a few different readings all at once. I feel sometimes I'm being pulled away from this. I have to remember there is no time limit to my reading or understanding . I havent read for many years . I love to read. There is no time limit for Art. I must move past what I've lost. To dwell on this (now state) is not productive. What is lost I can get back the 2 books I lost, The Satanic Bible & Uncle Setneks Guide To The LHP I also lost this PhotoMagick Album I made ...cant be replaced. I do hope Set has witnessed all of me and I beleive so. Thinking about Set The Prince Of Darkness might be the= to Satan. Satan is the Christian word but I like Satan just the same. Much of my instinctive nature latley has been Set.. After Set its effective. I now am coming into being... Reading everything on the Temple Of Set site.. Missing my books...I feel the need to reach out to other TOS members online. I stop from doing so right now..I know how my first attempt at reaching out to COS members in 1997 went. Actually I started a war. with the Atheist Satanist because I was ignorant to alot Im now aware of..I ask myself Do I need the approval of others? Can I maintain without approval? Can I just know I belong? Does Set accept me? Do I beleive? YES to both.. I met Set awhile ago > its hard to remember exactly what went down . The Sky, The Park. LSD. I love you Set. Talk with me .Laugh with me. Be with me. Xepher. I call on Set to be my Spirit Guide. Could Set be my cat Tails? He could be . Tails is my Demon Soul-Mate .I must continue my studys for that will increase my Magickal Power.
I never got why someone would want to side with the loser in a losing battle, since according to the Christian Bible the Devil and all his followers will lose out in the end and yadda yadda. Looking at Lucifer, however, from his original job description, Sheitan was the accuser, and he was a Watcher, a special kind of angel sent to Earth to report back to the Big Daddy about the goings-on they saw. He basically accused people before God, showed their faults and their shortcomings. The book of Job has alot of that in it, in that Lucifer tried to show Job up as a liar and not the devout man that he actually was. It wasn't until later on Christianity needed a boogeyman to place blame on, and have God eventually triumph over.
Personally, I don't believe there's a red guy with horns and a tail making people do bad things. Each one of us has the capability to do great good or great evil, whichever choices that they choose to make.
I beleive in mani Demons, spirits , and the bible I feel is a contradiction ^revelations^ forcasting the future would be a form of witchcraft.... ani wa I beleive in good , I feel there is one good side and mani bad sides....just because I seek revenge on those that have done me famili harm ...i dont think makes me a bad person....
according to the bible Satan was an Angel made of God...that ended up being the enemi.... However using the bible as stori ...I feel Satan has a purpose to tempt u ...but its a persons conciense and morals that decide what the person chooses to do there is no scapegoat to blaim onli the person that chooses to do wrong ...but wrong to me would be stealing from a friend raping someone abusing a child murdering for no reason..etc. not the 1o comandmants.
Not saing The Bible is true just commenting on the stori...Also I have no respect for a god that gives his son to die for the human race...Ive asked alot of christians would u give ur son to die for the mostli disgusting human race...most said no....So I told some of the christians ma be i could accept ur jesus if jesus is god...but that was just a discussion and what ive said above is not facts just me opinion...
I know plenty of people who might believe in God or Satan, but do not believe everything in the Bible..And, honestly, they shouldn't have to. Just like I have disagreed with certain Pagans on certain subjects before. The way I see it, when it comes to someone's spiritual beliefs, you don't need a book or a group of people telling you what to do or how to connect to whatever deities you honor. I think that if you believe your prayers or rituals will work they will.
And, as for why someone would want to worship Satan, I can understand, because there are people who end up drawn to darker gods or other entities when it comes to magick. It is just what they are drawn to, and in my view, dark doesn't necessarily always mean evil, and light doesn't always mean good.
In the eighties Me roomate worshiped Satan And a few othas where past membas of a Satanic Cult in Arizona I wasnt into ani magick back then but accepted them was curious and i witnessed a demon SAtan? invoked....and when i first studing Satanism I was one of those Satanic people....Ithat was ninteen ninti seven befo I knew of Anton LaVe Aleista C. and mo...Ive been possesed and i didnt hate that demon i loed it
I've rejected most of the nonsense in the Bible, because that's what it is, nonsense. It was written over the course of a few thousand years by a semi-literate patriarchial desert tribe that has little bearing on the world today. I spent years as a Pagan (closeted of course, as I live in the Appalachias) and years as an atheist (I love Carl Sagan and Richard Dawkins, lol) and right now I'm sort of an atheistic, spiritual agnostic with pagan tendencies lol.
Well, if that is what makes you happy. People's beliefs are not one size fits all. And, as I have said over and over, as long as someone is nice to me and others.As long as they are not shoving their beliefs down everyone's throats or harming others in anyway, I am not going to dis them or their beliefs. I am going to treat them the way I would want people to treat me. I mean, in the past, Christains and Atheists have given me shit when I didn't do anything to them, except being honest with them about my beliefs..And, of course, I don't mean I tried to convert them to my beliefs, I just came out to them about what I was.Because, well if they can be honest about what they believe, I should have the same right. Unfortunately, many people don't treat people with different beliefs with the same respect they would want.Of course they do not think of themselves as disrespectful, they think they are saving souls, or not attacking people, just beliefs..But I can tell you in either case, having their negative comments directed at you, and being talked to by these people like you are stupid sucks .I don't want to be anything like these people from my past. If someone has never done anything to me, or other people, I am not going treat them as shitty as I was treated.
I don't really put a label on myself..I do believe in many Gods, and many other kinds of spirits..I read stuff on different traditions of magick and stuff related to the paranormal for fun. I believe in spells and divination. I probably do a tarot reading about something every other day. I hang out with people who are either neo Pagan ( who honor Gods from more than one pantheon) or who have a mixture of pagan, native American and Christian beliefs. So yeah, I have met a lot of people with a diverse range of beliefs. But, what is most important to me, I am happy where I am , and I am doing what I want.
Skatan, I was wondering when you say you were possessed, did you invoke the spirit who possessed you, and gave it permission to possess you..Or did it just happen? And what happened when it possessed you? Anyway, not all cultures see possession as a negative thing..I know you are interested in voodoo..I have done enough research on voodoo to know that during their ceremonies, when someone is possessed by a loa ( for those of you who don't know about voodoo, one of the Gods in that tradition) it is seen as a positive experience.
i gave permision to Satan to posses me wheneva when I was whorshipping Satan,,,Usualli i was attacking the stepdad ... caose he is me enemi then he would have me three o twoed to the mental hospital where the exercized me i think now gt i think about it... thinking back ...r estraning me etc.
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